S4E9: Building Resilience and Community in Challenging Workplaces with Jay Voigt

Season #4 October 14, 2024

What happens when a people pleaser transforms into a people leader? Join me, Dr. Angela Buckley, as I chat with Jay Voigt from Human Capital Consulting about this crucial transition. Jay brings his extensive healthcare and consulting background to the table, sharing insights on recognizing and managing stress as the initial step toward personal and professional growth. Together, we explore practical strategies for self-reflection, such as meditation and journaling, which can help leaders pause, assess their mindset, and make better decisions in both their personal and professional lives. We also dive into the realm of personal growth through athletic pursuits, drawing intriguing parallels between the meditative nature of open water swimming and leadership challenges.

Embracing discomfort and stepping out of comfort zones emerge as essential elements for growth, whether in the pool or the boardroom. We discuss the delicate balance of pushing for progress while ensuring adequate rest, something that impacts both athletes and workplace productivity. Amidst the technological advances shaping our interactions, we emphasize the importance of authentic, face-to-face connections in nurturing meaningful relationships and fostering social skills. The conversation doesn't shy away from addressing serious issues like the challenges women face in male-dominated fields and the impact of trauma in the workplace. We highlight the power of community and support networks in overcoming feelings of overwhelm, sharing experiences from diverse communities where connection sparks growth. By understanding trauma's varied effects, leaders can create an environment where safety and trust are prioritized. The episode closes with valuable insights into empowering leadership and self-growth, encouraging listeners to master self-leadership and transform their approach to prevent burnout and enhance overall well-being.

Chapters & Summaries

(00:01) Leadership Mindset and Self-Reflection

This chapter focuses on the journey from being overwhelmed to becoming an effective leader, highlighting the transition from people pleaser to people leader. Dr. Angela Buckley, along with guest Jay Voigt from Human Capital Consulting, discusses the importance of recognizing stress and distress as a starting point for personal and professional growth. We explore various methods to identify one's current state, such as breathing exercises, meditation, or journaling, emphasizing the significance of understanding one's emotional and physical state to make better decisions. Jay shares insights from his background in healthcare and consulting, stressing the need for leaders to continuously assess their mindset to avoid reactivity both at work and at home. Practical advice is given on how listeners can pause, reflect, and acknowledge their current state, helping them to bridge the gap between where they are and where they want to be as leaders.

(14:55) Navigating Growth and Communication Trends

This chapter explores the transition from competitive swimming to outdoor and long course swimming, highlighting the shift away from repetitive pool competition to the meditative nature of open water swims. We discuss the concept of comfort zones and the importance of facing discomfort to foster personal growth, both in athletic pursuits and in leadership roles. The conversation touches on the necessity of balancing pushing oneself with adequate rest and recovery, using the analogy of training phases for endurance athletes. This balance is also crucial in workplace dynamics, where supervisors play a key role in assessing and managing team productivity without overwhelming their employees. Finally, we address the impact of modern technology on personal connections, emphasizing the importance of genuine, in-person interactions to develop social skills and maintain meaningful relationships.

(30:09) Building Community and Support Networks

This chapter explores the challenges faced by women in male-dominated fields, highlighting personal experiences of being the only female in manufacturing and engineering spaces, including difficulties like access to restrooms. We discuss the importance of building a sense of community to overcome feelings of overwhelm and stress, emphasizing how connection with others is vital for emotional support and growth. The conversation touches on various community types, such as sporting, cancer, veteran, and addiction communities, as places where shared experiences foster connection. We also discuss the parallels between coaching and therapy in facilitating community building and the significance of having mentors to sustain personal development beyond formal coaching sessions. Through these insights, we underline the value of setting boundaries, expectations, and fostering support networks to navigate personal and professional changes.

(38:31) Understanding Trauma in the Workplace

This chapter focuses on the profound impact trauma can have on individuals in both personal and professional settings. We explore how trauma manifests differently in people and the importance of understanding its varied effects, especially in the workplace where more than half of the individuals might have experienced significant trauma. Emphasizing the need for sensitivity, I discuss the importance of offering multiple options and fostering a safe, trusting environment without assuming the nature of someone's trauma. Sharing a personal learning experience, I highlight the significance of empowering individuals to define their own sense of safety rather than imposing assumptions. This approach encourages leaders to be self-aware and actively work on their weaknesses, moving away from the pitfalls of self-deception and promoting growth and understanding within their teams.

(43:09) Overcoming Overwhelm and Burnout

This chapter explores the nuances between true leadership and people pleasing, highlighting how effective leadership focuses on achieving goals rather than simply making others happy. The discussion emphasizes the importance of accountability and decision-making, even when those decisions may not be popular. Drawing parallels to medicine, where patient satisfaction does not always equate to better health outcomes, the conversation underscores the value of prioritizing long-term benefits over short-term appeasement. Additionally, we touch on the significance of task initiation and the concept of "sucking it up" to complete necessary but unenjoyable tasks, like vacuuming, for greater satisfaction. Through an engaging analogy involving food presentation, the chapter illustrates how differing perspectives and priorities can harmonize, whether in leadership or everyday tasks, to foster understanding and collaboration.

(55:21) Empowering Leadership and Self-Growth

This chapter focuses on the connection between self-leadership and leading others effectively. I explore the significance of adopting specific actions and mindsets to overcome overwhelm and prevent burnout. By mastering self-leadership, you can apply these skills across various areas of life, including at home, in the workplace, and within the community. Additionally, I introduce the Strength in Nature Learning Academy, which offers resources like the Overcome the Overwhelm course to help you on this journey. Join me to gain insights into transforming your leadership approach and improving your overall well-being.

Links & Contact Information

Jay Voigt: LinkedIn

Human-CapitalLLC.com

Keywords

#Leadership, #PersonalGrowth, #Overwhelm, #Stress, #Distress, #Mindset, #Self-Reflection, #Decision-Making, #CommunicationTrends, #ComfortZone, #Discomfort, #Development, #AthleticJourney, #LeadershipRoles, #Technology, #PersonalConnections, #Community, #SupportNetworks, #Trauma, #Workplace, #Empowerment, #Self-Leadership

Episode Transcript

00:01 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Are you an aspiring leader who knows you have more to offer but you can't seem to get ahead? Do you frequently feel overwhelmed and under-supported? Listen to the Overcome to Become podcast as we talk about actionable tasks and mindsets that you can apply to begin leading yourself. Hi, I'm Dr Angela Buckley, your host and author of the Strength in Nature Leadership Series and Likeable Leadership Reflection Journals. I'm a mother, consultant, triathlete and coach In Overcome to Become. I share with you the science-backed and experienced proven lessons I've learned in my own leadership journey to beat burnout. I have today with me Jay Voigt. I would love for you to introduce yourself in your own words, because we've known each other for so long. If you could introduce the business side of you and then I'll introduce the personal side of you, if you don't mind.

00:58 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Sure Hope that part doesn't undermine the business side.

01:02
Thanks for having me Pleasure to be here. My name is Jay Voigt and I'm with Human Capital Consulting, and the work that I do helps organizations and leaders build skills and become better organizational leaders. To suck less at leadership is one of the ways that we describe it. My professional background I came up in healthcare, my background's in addiction counseling and then I have about a decade in senior leadership in healthcare systems. So I entered the consulting world about two years ago and I work across sectors, but most of my organizations I work with are kind of mid-market.

01:45 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Okay so, and in full disclosure, you are my cousin and we actually lived together for a while when we were living in Germany, right? So that was a few decades ago maybe 88.

02:03
So it's been some time, yeah, Um. So it's been some time, yeah, Um. But we have a lot in common from our families being together, but also then more recently really, where you and I have kind of like collided a little bit in the personal, personal growth, uh, personal development kind of world. So I think it's really interesting to be having you on this podcast with your expertise and my newfound love for personal development, right, yeah?

02:33 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
pleasure to be here, Anne.

02:35 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
So thank you for joining me this season in Overcome to Become, we have been talking about mental mindset and the focus of overcome to become is really helping people move from people pleaser to people leader. And what does that look like? And when you are in that overwhelm and you are just drowning with the I have too much to do, I have no clarity. I just don't even know where to start.

03:04 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah.

03:05 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
How do we go from treading water or trying to keep our head above water to actually swimming Right? Great question when do you start people, how do you get them going, and do people come to you asking those same kinds of questions? What do you see in your field right now?

03:24 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, I'd say yes to all of them. The common starting point for most people to be effective in that space is to acknowledge that they're in a state of stress or distress. You know there's neurobiological reasons that the whole podcast and books on that talk about our inability to think abstractly and think critically when we're under stress. And that's always been a starting point for me, whether it was in a counseling session or a coaching session with an executive is helping the participant or participants figure out where they're at. And there's lots of ways to do it.

04:04
Some folks like to do a little breathing exercise, some folks will do a little guided meditation, some folks might break out a journal and, you know, write a couple paragraphs. It doesn't matter how you do it, but I think it's important to stop and kind of acknowledge like where am I right now? Because when we're in that state that you described, we're reactive, we're fear-based, we're not making our best decisions, you know for sure, in terms of like leadership or people that manage people. I think it's important to do that throughout the day because the impact you're having is huge or even as a parent.

04:47
You know I'm sure a lot of your listeners can relate to parenting and, right like you don't get a break from parenting a lot of times and you end up being reactive and you tend to do or say things that you might not have otherwise. You know you're not your self. So, whether it's in the workplace or whether it's home, you got to figure out where you're at. Once you know where you are, then you can start going down that path of what skills and tools you need to use to be the person you need to be.

05:17 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
And how do my listeners figure out where they're at? Is it because of the time, because of the emotional stress? Are they writing this down? Or are they focusing on what they want to be and then understanding those gaps?

05:31 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, I think identifying where you're at everybody's different. That's why I mentioned a couple different ways to do it. But, like right now on this podcast, you know I'd invite your listeners to pull over, sit down, pause this thing, take a couple breaths and scan your body. Does anything hurt? Start paying attention to your breathing. How quick is it? Most people have space watches, as I like to call them, apple watches or whatever. We talk about them all the time here, Jay yeah.

06:04
Look at your heartbeat. Is talk about this all the time here, jay? Yeah, look at your heartbeat. Is it baseline or is it not? And then look at kind of your day, like how have you spent your time? A lot of times people end up spending way more time thinking or obsessing over something than they would like to. So if I ask the listener say did you think about anything today more than you wanted to, they'd likely be able to identify a couple of things, if that's the case, to which I would respond to any of those data points. Ok, you can know. Something's got you impacted, something's got you worked up. Chances are you have a couple of those things that I mentioned which would be more data to validate. Ok, you're being impacted by something. So the next step is to what extent right of those things that I mentioned which would be more data to validate? Okay, you're being impacted by something, so the next step is to what extent right?

06:51 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
That's true. You know what I used to do when I was in college. If I knew like I had deadlines and the stress was building, I always cleaned my house first and then I baked cookies. Nice, you knew. You knew that some major exam, something that you know, like it's completely a procrastination technique. But also now, when I look back, knowing a little bit more about what I know, it was also a self-regulation technique, right, like by creating the calm of a clean space.

07:24
And we know that the scent of cooking and baking bread, like it, calms you down, it makes you feel like you're at home, and the bigger the test was, the cleaner my house was or my apartment Right, and that used to be like a trigger not a trigger, but it was a tell that I was under stress because I needed to create the calm so that I had all of that out of my way, so I could in fact get in the flow of the studying.

07:54 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, great barometer. Yeah, you were like doing mindfulness and grounding techniques before. It was cool.

08:01 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
I didn't know that's what I was doing. I called it procrastination, right was cool. I didn't. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I called it procrastination, right. Like I thought I was procrastinating but really, when I look back and I understand more about the science of it, my house was clean, my desk was clean. I kind of dusted off everything I didn't have all the like. I can get easily distracted, so I removed my distractions.

08:23
Yeah, and honestly, even when I did my dissertation program like you have to take three tests.

08:29
You have a week to do the test to pass for candidacy and you get three questions you're allowed to select from the different professors I think you may know this and then you have an entire week to research, write your answer and submit. And I knew that it was going to be so intense. I actually selected I, I prepared my neighborhood. They knew my friends, like I created a support system and they literally dropped off food to me and like when I was walking in the neighborhood, cause would walk my dog. I did like make sure I kept some exercises. They stopped me and brought me food and made sure that I had the support that I needed during that week. But I prepared like I prepared food ahead of time because I knew I would be stressed and otherwise I would just eat and I cleaned the house before those questions came right, like you knew what date that was coming and I basically time blocked the entire week yeah, yeah and so I focused on survival techniques that I knew, like I knew.

09:36
when you're under stress, you have to like figure that out. But I was lucky I didn't have children, I wasn't working a full-time job, I wasn't meeting the demands. I had one demand and it was pass this test and walk the dog, but right like that's still taking care of your emotional health. Yeah.

09:56 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah.

09:58 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
You nailed it.

09:59 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
You know be like Ange. You know anticipating that stuff and planning huge, super, duper, huge and um. One of the problems I see with a lot of um stuff out there on dealing with stress is it's not realistic. You know authors will write these books or with videos or podcasts talking about. You know here's this ideal state. You got to go and do these 57 things to get it right and the reality is we have the individual has to come up with something that works for them, and you identified stuff that works for you. You know baking, cooking for a lot of people can be a thing, for others not so much. And then the other part of it is what kind of coping skills can I develop that I can use in five minutes?

10:42 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yeah.

10:43 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Or in 30 seconds, in public versus private, along with people. Right, and what you described, you know, works awesome, right, but I'm sure you have different skills and tools you used, especially parenting. You know, a young child in a public place where everything went wrong.

11:03 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yes, I'm sure that my parenting score isn't 100%.

11:11 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Never met a 100% parent, right? But yeah, that's the reality, right? That's where the rubber meets the road. How do we handle real stress, real time, in an effective way?

11:28 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
stress real time in an effective way. So what? Okay, breathing is one right. Like a lot of people talk to me about breathing, breathing practices, I I personally don't use breathing practices as part of mine, but I also talked about the fact that, since I'm playing Elkhorn, like I have a breathing practice, but I don't use the breathing in a tense situation. Yeah, um, you know, maybe you do. No, maybe I do, I don't know I can get pretty upset, so maybe I don't, maybe I should figure out how to figure it out.

12:03 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
I think it's best when you combine multiple things right. So, like I'm ADD, for example and I don't mean ADD like everyone says like I take the medication, like I've done the tests, I'm legit ADD, so meditation is historically difficult for people with ADD. I've messed with lots of different kinds of meditation. I know some people they need you can do it, not me. It's not my bag. Yeah, you can't force meditation on me, right, um? But one of the things that that works for add that helps me focus and also helps people without add focus is when they engage in um high stimulus activities. And let me give you an example Rock climbing.

12:46
When you're rock climbing and you're 20 feet up on a rope, whatever. Unless you've been climbing for a lot of years, I promise you you're not thinking about your tax return or your neighbor, like you're thinking about what's ahead of you. Same thing with skiing and snowboarding, right, If you're tackling real challenges, you're focused on not hitting the tree, not getting stuck, not getting hurt. For everyone. It's different, right? If you get really good at something, then you might free capacity in your mind for it to wander. But when you tackle those activities that are all encompassing, that's a form of meditation, Gives your mind a break from X, Y and Z.

13:31
You and I share swimming in common and I never really thought about it until the past couple of years, but swimming is very meditative. And then when you add in the exercise component, so I'm meditating and then I'm getting this workout. So physical activities are best for really tackling all your senses. I don't like working out and I know a lot of people don't. I'm not saying you gotta work out, but um, to find something that's all encompassing. A lot of times it's physical I, I do.

14:04 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
You will hear. Anyone who's listened to me ever has probably heard me say 20 minutes in nature, right, there is so much research that shows how important it is for us to see green, literally looking at green. If you can't actually get out of the cityscape, create a picture zone in your home. Create a picture zone in your, in your home, um, but looking at green, walking in green, using swimming, is important too, because it's that right, left, side, um side motions and the walking part of it. You can really heal your way out of a lot of dysregulation by regularly creating something that is physical and a little bit meditative at the same time. I think it is so important for people to understand the importance of that. Personally, for me, swimming no longer well. That's why I moved to outdoor swimming and long course swimming, because I just got so tired of the competition, like I competed for a lot longer than you did.

15:09
And I got tired of the black plus sign at the end, right, like I have been around the world in pools with blue and black plus signs and that's flip, so many strokes, flip, so many strokes, right? Um, it no longer was as meditative for me, but being outdoors in the lake, that is, that's like my super comfort zone, right?

15:35 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
so that's why I've moved into more triathlons, because it gives me access to the open water swims yeah, yeah, no, I can absolutely see that, and that concept of comfort zones also, I think, is worth kind of noting, for reasons I'm not going to go into. I think as a society we've kind of moved to a place where we're really kind of looking and expecting to feel comfortable all the time, and the reality is, first of all, humans weren't designed that way. But, more importantly, if I'm avoiding things that are uncomfortable, I'm not growing. Yes, the rest is good.

16:18
It's important that you're exposed to hardships and things, growing up as a child but also as an adult. Like that old quote from Noah Roosevelt, something to the effect of do something that scares you every day, like what she's saying is you're not going to grow up, being comfortable. And as a leader organizations, I can say you know, if I'm doing my job right, comfort is not what I'm achieving. We're continually pushing and growing. And I'd say the same thing would be true in a friendship my closest friends that we've been friends for years, we've overcome some stuff and that's what's made us such good friends, right, yeah, so I mean, it's kind of a weird thing to think about, but when you're going through something rough and thinking about it as a growth opportunity. It's the last thing I last way. I want to think about it, but the reality is that's that's how I grow. Best is when I'm going through stuff.

17:20 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
So I like to talk about, from an endurance athlete perspective, the fact that we have build phases and you do, you get to the edge where you're really, really tired, right, but you also have to know when to back off and heal, because you have to stretch and then heal and that's where that growth phase is right, like if you were in a stressful situation with a friend and you kept pushing.

17:48
You have one way either it resolves and you have a time to like recollect that friendship, right, like figure out how you're going to move forward, or it breaks. And I think too many people don't understand the difference between getting to the edge, stretching, and then knowing when to heal. And so I think I feel like sometimes, especially in large corporations and again I work in manufacturing, so lots of people driving big numbers all the time we never know how to let the people back off so that they can actually grow again. Because when you do have that back down and there's some healing, you're actually actually faster, right. An Olympic athlete knows this. This is inherent and that's why you have coaches looking at that. You're building, you're stretching, you're healing and you're building and you're stretching and in that process you're growing more. But that rest and recovery is such an important part of our friendships, as well as the development of our bodies.

18:54 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
I think you're spot on and that is the million dollar question. In the workplace, what is that the correct cadence? And I think my I mean when I'm thinking about work my response would be as a leader or manager or supervisor, you're responsible for other people and there's pressure on you to get the most you can in terms of quote, unquote, productivity out of your team 100 and a lot of times the supervisor has the best relationship with the team.

19:22
They're best equipped to make that assessment, to like how much work they can or can't handle. The flip side of that is, we're usually seeing supervisory or manager type people that are sticking up for their employees and reluctant to implement, you know, changes that would result in more quote-unquote productivity, and so I think there's a balance in there. It's about the dialogue. It's about the manager supervisor understanding it and being part of coming up with the solution rather than it being dictated down to them. Right, and so in our personal lives, um, you know modern technology, screen time, you know it's pretty easy to distance yourself from someone or connect with someone if you want to. You know, 50 years ago we'd say don't go play volleyball on Saturday because you're recovering, right. If it was a relational thing, we'd say, well, don't go to that place where that person is, and you won't have to deal with them.

20:25 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Right.

20:26 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
That worked until you know. Now I think someone's use of social media is going to mediate some of that cadence to which they're engaged or connected to things that could be potentially stressful.

20:44 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
There is. I feel like we have the two extremes you either have so much connectedness or you don't, or you don't. I think that's where you hear. A lot of the struggles is I can't release myself from my own connectedness, or I feel so isolated because I never see anybody, because everybody's on the computer, sure, and we think about what that connectedness is.

21:11 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
I think a lot of it is pseudo-connectedness.

21:14 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Right.

21:16 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Like things are different. You know, again, we could have a whole podcast on neurological explanations for intimacy or friendships or relationships and the impact technology has had and does have upon that, and I think the short version is um, until they differently. We need some person to person interactions to build social skills, to trigger certain things in our brain that helps us connect. It's not to say you can't have friendships or connect online, but I would strongly advise against doing so exclusively advise against doing so exclusively, I agree with.

22:00 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
but you know, it's interesting because, for example, during the covin time period, a lot of these kids learned how to connect online and we are actively coaching eye contact. Yeah right, like when you're in the room, like I do look off, when I collect my thoughts, I looked off, I come back, but when I, when I'm talking, I have eye contact. But I see the kids they're talking like this and it's hard for them to sit down, even because they haven't had, they haven't had to have some of the practice. But I feel like in my generation people are offended by it, whereas in their generation they're all like that, like they're all not communicating in an eye-to-eye kind of way and so they're not offended. So then it makes me wonder what will their communications look like going forward, because it impacted an entire generation.

23:01 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, and that's true across the globe, right? There's other cultures where they have different norms about eye contact and impact that that has on, particularly workplace. When, know, when you have people from different cultures in the workplace that say, value assertiveness or directiveness versus respect and like withholding, you know, feedback and input. These are all real things that we have to address in the world.

23:35
One of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain was the cure for racism is travel, and I really think what he meant by that is being exposed to different cultures and different people and different ways of doing things promotes understanding and through that understanding that helps us figure out how to be, how to connect, how to relate to folks around us. So I'm not saying that we shouldn't teach kids eye contact, but what I am saying is that was a big norm for our culture and that's being pushed upon and challenged. I do think it would be wise to coach a child to be able to communicate in different ways and if eye contact is not one of them, a lot of the world uses eye contact and there could be some value in learning that yep, yep.

24:23 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Well, we'll see. Right like I'm, I'm just. I look at the world a little bit from like the the social study side of it, the social, not just the one-on-one right. So I like to see how cultures develop, so I'm interested to see what happens when these middle schoolers during COVID really start entering the workplace.

24:47 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, yeah.

24:49 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
And then just because we talked about some neurodivergence, and then just because we talked about some neurodivergence, I think with the growing acceptance and conversations around the different diagnoses, I think that may play out in the workplace as well, like I've seen some estimates that suggest between autism, adhd and ADD, you're looking at 20% of the population, sure, sure?

25:15 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
So I mean, in response to that, like I haven't read the latest numbers, you know, last I heard it was one in 36 for autism and ADD. Adhd is different titles that have happened you know, over the years.

25:28
But one thing I know people, human beings, throughout time, one thing we've always been really good at across cultures is differentiation. We are really good about saying you're this and I'm that, they're this, and you know, whether it's like political parties or social groups or whatever. And we've reached a point. I think in our current culture, where we've gone down through so many iterations of this, you know this concept of neurodivergence, like we've always had people that learn differently. That's why we figured out hey, when you teach, you should always teach people embracing. You know tactile and visual and verbal and auditory right. The more ways you can communicate a message, the more likelihood your listeners are going to pick up on that.

26:19
So this concept of neurodivergence, it's another category, another bucket that we've looked at and reached into, and there's a danger of putting too fine a point on how different and unique every person is from this, that and the next thing. So I'm not suggesting that like racism, for example, or like learning disabilities are not like important distinctions and things that need to be acknowledged important distinctions and things that need to be acknowledged. But what I will say is I think it's important that we focus more on things that foster connection versus distinction, and I think that's why we've seen this change in this concept of diversity. Equity, inclusion, right. They recently dropped the D and now there's all this talk about equity and inclusion is what's important. We don't need to make diversity be a separate thing, because that's redundant. You can't be included unless you know people that are diverse are feeling comfortable and safe in X, y and Z environments.

27:31
I don't know, how that'll pan out, but I just think it's an interesting thing. I have yet to see anyone kind of drop a letter from a group rather than add a letter, so we'll see how this thing pans out.

27:44 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
I think there are a lot of politics in play associated with that one, so that'll be interesting. So I know quite a few people have been impacted by some of those decisions and not necessarily in a positive way not being able to have your voice heard and sometimes having pathways for communications and then those pathways are blocked.

28:23
I think that does lead to a lot of stress and there are people who are now even focusing on healing from some of that stress in a therapy setting, like targeting specifically some of those healing processes because we do, we still have an opportunity to fix what equity and inclusion looks like.

28:51 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Sure sure, All over the place, place.

28:53 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
so so that'll be that there's lots. There's lots to unpack on that one.

28:59 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
So yeah, I don't want to cram too much into the yeah you know, to the podcast.

29:04
But I guess the one thing I'll say to your point, ang, is um, ways that people exist, um and communicate and experience things in the workplace for people of the majority, ie white males in particular. A lot of times they're not aware of these other quote-unquote perspectives, the realities of other people, because it's been so, you know, male dominated, male focus, caucasian focused that there hasn't even been a question of what do you mean? You can't communicate. I gave you a pathway to communicate and you chose not to use it right. And then I start talking about well, I have a learning disability and I don't know how to write. Well, I have an open door policy. You should have come to me. Well, I don't feel safe coming to you because of years of my experience with white males and blah, blah, blah. So I'm loving that we're beginning to see more interest in dialogue around that, but we have a super, super long way to go.

30:08 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
We do. I mean, I can't tell you how many times throughout my career I was the only female in the room.

30:14 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Particularly manufacturing and engineering right.

30:17 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
I've had to walk literally over a mile to use the restroom when I was pregnant. One time I basically just told the guy to stand out front because I wasn't walking all the way up to the secretary's hallway to use the restroom every 10 minutes right, like I was pregnant. You just need to use the restroom a little more at every 10 minutes right, like I was pregnant.

30:35
You, you, just you need to use the restroom a little more at a certain point, right, and I mean it just wasn't even worth the walk going back and forth. It would take me as long to walk up there as it would have to turn around and go back Cause it was so far away. So there's plenty of opportunities, and even in our education system, like I was, in buildings that did not have women's restrooms because they were designed for male engineers sure you know, and and I tell people that I'm like that was in my lifetime, that wasn't that long ago.

31:06
So, like I know we want to say ancient history or whatever, but we definitely, and that's an easy one to talk about, right, like there are difficult ones to talk about. Sure, sure so yeah, and that does, and that does lead to overwhelm and to stress, and one of the things that we do like to talk about in overcoming overwhelm is how do you build your sense of community?

31:33 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I think it's critical and key. We were, people, were, however you want to phrase it designed, evolved, whatever. There's this innate desire in us to connect with people around us.

31:47
So that's another reason we're so good at differentiating is we got to find our people in our group. But as we whittle it down more and more to find our people in our group, but as we whittle, whittle it down more and more, there's less people in the group the more parameters I have around. You know my political affiliation and region and language and um, that makes it tough. So I think helping people or encouraging people to find those spaces where they can connect and relate, or encouraging people to find those spaces where they can connect and relate, I'm thinking back like probably the 40s and 50s, right, like churches were the predominant, like social structures in America, right Then. Over time that's changed, I'm going to guess it's probably not churches nearly as much as it used to. We have the like pickleball communities I was going to say.

32:37 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
I think it's the sporting community Like for me, it's the triathlon community right when I need help, when I need whatever, these are the ladies that show up. These are the ladies I reach out to for emotional support or whatever else. Yeah, I think the sporting communities have definitely taken the number one spot in the US. I'd have to look at numbers, but.

32:58 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, think about the cancer community. How many people march for cancer and relate to that? Think about veterans. What kind of veteran are you? Where did you serve? There's all these people with shared experiences where they seem to really can connect and relate and they're over to, they're able to like, ignore or transcend some of those um other finer parts of identity, um the addiction community. Right as a recovering person, I've been uh 12-step meetings in different countries. You know it's crazy that kind of acceptance you can experience in those environments. So not doing it alone, I think, is key.

33:42 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
We have a significant element associated with building community and we'll talk about that more in upcoming seasons on this podcast. But building your tribe right, who is going through similar experiences? Who can you talk to? And as you make changes, you invite people to treat you in a certain way. Right, you need to have somebody that's in your wheelhouse supporting you as you make those changes, because all the people around you are learning new techniques as well, and learning as you set your boundaries and set your expectations, and learning as you set your boundaries and set your expectations. So that's a big part of our community building conversations is how. How do you build them? How do you create that community and how do you create that support for yourself and then extend it out to others?

34:42 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely yeah, sometimes that happens organically, you know. Sometimes not so much, but let me go on back to doing things that are uncomfortable. I'd say you got to get out there to start. As you grow and change, your communities will probably grow and change as well, and that's okay. But you got to be connected to something.

35:05 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yes, yeah, I think that was one of the hardest things. One of my friends is a funeral director and, again going back to covid, we had a. We had a lot of struggles with some of the people in our community because they weren't able to gather yeah, choirs, or in nursing homes, or nursing home and choirs, right. So two very high risk populations and then not being able to gather to honor these lives. Like you really saw people stressing and it took. It's taken even just even to now where we feel like there's some normalization within the organization and, in fact, they've hired me as their leadership coach to help the team come together and be service, be of service to their organization.

36:18 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah.

36:19 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Some of the stressors.

36:21 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
There's a lot of parallels between coaching and therapy. Think about you know about my work as a clinician or therapist. I spend a lot of time helping people figure out ways or removing barriers to connect to different communities, and I feel coaching is the same way. One of the things I do in coaching with everyone, regardless of their story or where they're coming from, is I encourage people to find mentors.

36:50 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yes.

36:50 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
So when coaching ends they have some built in kind of system to help address some of the things that they've been doing and learning and coaching.

36:59 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yep, I always say, like, therapy is a lot about the inner work and coaching can be about the inner work, but coaching is measured in action and outcome and I feel like in therapy you have to discover what you should do to take your next step, whereas in coaching. I can be like here are your next steps.

37:20 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, yeah.

37:20 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
And if you struggle with this step, I can help you a little bit. Struggle with this step, I can help you a little bit, but if it's like a really big struggle, yeah here is my therapist friend.

37:36
Right here are my recommendations for therapy. Like I am not a therapist, so I always have to be careful with the doctor title, right. Like I am not a therapist and I make sure that people know that. Um, but coaching is about getting that energy, creating that momentum, taking action, and I think that's really kind of like those defining lines.

37:54 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, creating the space, creating the container for change, right.

37:58 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yeah.

37:59 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, I think you nailed it.

38:01 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
So I always like to kind of throw that out there into some of my seasons to make sure that I'm not misrepresenting the work that I do. But you can get a lot of action done in a different way when you're coaching, Whereas therapy is a lot of healing which allows you to have that fundamental base to go into the coaching. But sometimes you need both.

38:26 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah.

38:26 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
It's important, get it all together.

38:31 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
One thing we haven't talked about explicitly is the impact trauma or traumatic experiences have had on people's life, whether it's in the workplace or personally.

38:40
And coming from a therapeutic background, having treated folks for lots of things, including trauma, I can say that it's pretty important to understand what trauma is and how it manifests itself.

38:56
So when we look at the statistics about the number of people that have been impacted by sexual assault, violence, abandonment, war, poverty, a gazillion reasons it's a pretty safe bet to say in just about any workplace, over half of the people you're gonna encounter have experienced some significant trauma throughout their lifetime. And the thing with trauma is it affects everyone differently and trauma can be triggered in a lot of different ways for folks. So when we talk about building resilience, or I'm telling my client hey, I really think it's important that you go to this 12-step meeting that's happening in a church basement, not understanding that they might have some serious you know trauma in their background related to churches and that could be this huge barrier. So it's not about the 12-step, it's about the church. So I think that's true in a lot of different ways. We're going to encounter people that are reluctant to engage in some of these seemingly innocuous activities go join the bowling club, go do this, go do that.

40:12
So I think it's important that we make sure we give a lot of different options and outs and approach everything with curiosity, because chances are, the folks we're working with aren't going to want to tell us their trauma story. They're just going to say I don't want to go to that thing because it's stupid.

40:28 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yep, you know, right when we should really be curious about the phrase. That's stupid, because it does come up quite a bit right, like when you, when you hear that, especially from a professional, it's a, it's a guard is up, kind of thing. Right, so your guard is up and that doesn't mean you have to tell me you don't have to share everything. Like again, the workplace is not your therapy setting, but creating a safe space where people do feel that they can trust and they can communicate is the role of those a supervisor and a manager.

41:06 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, one of my biggest mistakes as a therapist is I once had a client who they were victimized by a staff member that worked in the kitchen at this residential facility I worked at. So once we found out, you know, we made sure that they didn't have any contact and I won't bore you with the whole story. But here's the mistake. The mistake was assuming, hey, if we can prevent contact from her and this person, then that's a safe place Versus what would make you feel safe Like let's talk through this Like what ideas do you?

41:45
that's empowering? What ideas do you have? What do you you feel safe Like? Let's talk through this Like what ideas do you that's empowering? What ideas do you have? What do you want to see? That definitely is the way to go, not to assume what safety is for somebody and asking them to describe it Just as you had mentioned.

41:58 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
You know, I feel like many of us have made that mistake. As a young professional coach supervisor friend, here's the solution. Well, you came and told me so I provided the solution. Why aren't you happy now? That is definitely a growth mechanism for all of us.

42:18 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
It's progress. I mean part of my tagline. Helping leaders suck less implies that leaders leaders suck, and what I mean by that is if you're a leader and you're not aware of your weaknesses, you suck because you have weaknesses and you need to know what they are and be working on those. So helping leaders suck less, that's meant for the leaders that know hey, there's work to do, I, I'm growing, I need to be better. Versus the leader that's living in the lie, living in self-deception that they've arrived and they've made it. Those are the dangerous leaders.

42:57 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
I have come across some of them.

42:59 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
I think we all have.

43:00 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
And those stories are not always the ones I want to air publicly. So, yeah, sure, it's funny that you say that. I knew you had said that your tagline was helping leaders suck less, but mine is moving people pleasers, moving them from people pleaser to people leader.

43:21 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Right.

43:21 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
So a lot of the, a lot of my listeners are servant leaders by choice. Yeah, but then what's the difference between true leadership versus people pleasing Right? Like it is hard to say no and it is hard to hold people accountable. As a leader, you're still holding people accountable, not doing it for them, so it's an important distinction in my mind.

43:52 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
I was. Almost every day I'm on the phone or the video with a leader around, all that kind of stuff, and for me the distinction with people pleasing is kind of the goal. People pleasing usually is about me not experiencing anxiety, me getting you to like me and that's it. It's not that much. You know much more complicated than that. But when I think about leadership, leadership's not about making people happy, leadership's about getting something done, and oftentimes people are happy and it's ideal when you can do things in a way that make them happy.

44:30
But that's not always the case. Case in point in medicine, satisfied patients are more unhealthy than dissatisfied patients. So what does that mean? That means I like my Dr Angela because she does what I ask her to do. I'm driving care versus Dr Angela driving care. Conversely, dr Angela tells me this is the prescription, this is the course of treatment. I know you don't like it, jay, but this is this is it. I'm going to be a healthier patient by by doing that. Right, because in medicine also, people pleasing or patient pleasing is a very real thing for a whole lot of reasons.

45:19 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Interesting. I didn't. I I've been very lucky and so interesting I didn't know that it's a. It's a really good statistic to understand. But I think about some of the things. I really, really hate vacuuming. I hate vacuuming. Of all the tasks in the house.

45:42
I really but I really like having a clean house, like I talk about that quite a bit, right, um, so it's worth it to get it done. It doesn't take that much time, whatever else, but it's worth it to get it done because I'm I'm happier in the long run, as opposed to being happy by not doing it. Like what does that get me? It really doesn doesn't, right, like just just do it, start it and do it. And one of the things we talk about is like task initiation or momentum, like just get all the things that you really don't like done. Like suck it up Truly. Sometimes we just have to suck it up and do it and you're grateful when you're done.

46:27
My girlfriend is a big fan, marcy. She's a big fan of beautiful plates. Like when she makes food, everything has to fit. It has to be on the plate, like she plates beautifully, okay, has to fit. It has to be on the plate. Like she plates beautifully, okay.

46:50
And her husband and I are like is there protein, is there nutrition? Like our, our approach to the food plate is very different. Right, hers is very she's very much healthy food oriented, but it has to be beautiful in its presentation. It has to be social. There's this like joining of things and I'm way more clinical. In my food I'm like does it have the protein? Does it have the vegetables? Does it have the right amount of carbs for the amount of workouts that we did today? She looked at me one time and she's like you literally just said eat your protein, not eat your chicken.

47:25
I'm like I'm all about getting that like a little more scientific approach to it, but it's important to understand kind of like those differences and how they mix together and just having the fun of all that Right, like you can take two totally different perspectives and still blend that into the same plate. I don't, I'm not asking for an ugly plate, but I will eat it. If it's ugly, she won't, and my son either. He won't either if it's like not appealing or visually appetizing, like he doesn't have to be the level of beauty that she has. But if, if it doesn't like if it's a pile of beans or whatever and it just, even if it hits all of the requirements, he's like no, he's not for it. He's like I'm not hungry. Even if he takes it and likes it, he's like I'm not hungry. So understanding people's perspectives and getting that all in there too is it's super important and it helps people come together.

48:27 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it's a great analogy. We could play with that one all day, you know. But that idea of how you plate something, versus what the food is, versus how it's presented with who it's, with um going to a restaurant's a great way to kind of look at that. They pay attention to all those things, right, so they can reach the broadest audience.

48:49 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Right, right, and it's interesting. I mean, when we could go down that marketing hole right of. There's a reason. You do different things in a different way for different audiences and different markets and things. So I like to see it in the home.

49:07
And what you know, like mine, is get it done. Get it because I have to move on to my next task, whereas she enjoys that part of it right, like going back to does it suck. Like I don't enjoy doing the kitchen part as much, but I care about the nutrition, so I just blow through that part to get to the nutrition but, I don't not appreciate everything that she does like that it's fun to go sit at her house and eat don't get me wrong, right, so it just matters.

49:35
I think kind of, sometimes do you you get the stuff done to get to the happy spot, or do you enjoy the process because that part is important to you as well? I think it's kind of like when we're talking about overcoming overwhelm, finding those priorities that are different for each person, and how do you fit all of those in together?

49:56 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't disagree, right? Different people approach being overwhelmed in different ways, just as different people are overwhelmed by different things. Yeah, it's so unique to the person. But going back to a point you made earlier, Ange with coaching, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you think. It doesn't really matter what you feel. What matters is what you do. And that's a danger, and particularly in counseling or psychotherapy, but also in coaching is getting stuck in that whole analysis and understanding and meaning and existential blah, blah, blah. We're wired that way. We want to know why things are happening, we want to understand things, but at the end of the day, that's not where the solution is and understanding the solution is doing.

50:49 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
The solution is doing. I think you know that, like we again athletes right, we talk about motion is the fountain of youth. Doing is where it gets done and I think, depending on like I see people with mild depression, and we can get them out the door and overcome mild depression quickly because they're doing and you're generating, versus being stuck Like as soon as you accept it, and you get stuck now you're spinning the other direction. So I think there's a lot to be said for momentum yeah as well.

51:28
Right, like understanding that the do creates a positive force and the sitting creates a negative force that allows you to get stuck. So that motion physically moving your body is an important part of the solution and we're allowed to talk about that ad nauseum.

51:50 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
It applies to psychotherapy and therapy as well. You know what they're doing now with knee transplants, for example. Right, if you get a new knee, is there having you walk on it the same day?

52:02 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Listen. My partner had two knees in the time we've been dating and I've had my ACL, Like we got all the knee experience done.

52:10 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Right, right.

52:11 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Up the same day.

52:13 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Right, but you used to have to immobilize it for like six weeks or more or whatever, right? So even medicine supports that idea.

52:21 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yep, yeah, no, I absolutely. I think we're seeing more and more that you include rest, but it's not only rest and understanding what that is, and there is a process to healing. Yeah, takes that, that journey. I like to talk about the journey, right? So it's fun to read a map and create a map and map that out, and then that's the hard part. Then you just got to do it yeah, yep, absolutely don't disagree at all.

52:55
So but hey, jay, do you have any closing points that you would love to share relative to overcoming overwhelmed feeding burnout? Like what if you had your favorite one point when someone said oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed, what can I do? What? What's your favorite point to turn to?

53:17 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
figure out how to ask and accept help, that's it. Figure out how to ask for that's it. Figure out how to ask for and accept help.

53:28 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
It's not complicated, but it's hard isn't it? I feel like you have to ask more than once too. There's a lot of science that says you have to ask more than once, and people are more willing to help you the second time.

53:40 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, or ask the right person right.

53:42 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Also true, right I? I had a conversation recently with someone. I said are you asking for my advice or my permission? Nice right, like because it feels like you're asking me for permission. Yeah, you can do whatever you want. You have permission go, but you asked for my advice. That's how you started the conversation.

54:01 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, here's my advice yeah, yeah, and it's free right it was a friend.

54:07 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
It's free. I'm not here.

54:09 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
We are yeah, sometimes the way we ask or other people ask doesn't get at what we're really after or they're really after yes so, yeah, you gotta ask it in a way that someone can hear it, and that was a great example, ang, of making a distinction, you know, with a family or friend.

54:27 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
So in the show notes I will also add a link to a blog that I've written on that same topic of how to ask and ask for help in order to actually get the help that you need.

54:38 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Awesome, outstanding. Well, I'd love to see or hear it, depending on the format.

54:43 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Yeah, that one's a blog, so I'll send you a link. Yes, Danny.

54:47 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Well, thanks so much for having me on, Angela. It's been a pleasure.

54:50 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Thank you for joining. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and some of your experiences with my audience. How can they get ahold of you?

54:59 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
If anybody's out.

55:00 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
You're out in Colorado area.

55:03 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, I'm in the Denver area, but my website is human-capitall.com and I'm sure you'll put it in the notes.

55:13 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Absolutely.

55:14 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Yeah, look me up.

55:15 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
Okay, all right. Well, thank you very much and we'll talk to you soon.

55:19 - Jay Voigt (Guest)
Thanks so much, Angela.

55:21 - Angela J Buckley, PhD (Host)
You've just listened to another episode of Overcome to Become. Thank you for joining me, Angela Buckley, your host, as we explored actions and mindsets to overcome the overwhelm and beat burnout. Did you know that when you learn to lead yourself, you can effectively learn to lead others? You can apply these skills in your home, at work and in the community. If you'd like to learn more, join us in the Strength in Nature Learning Academy. We are currently featuring the Overcome the Overwhelm course with a 20% off coupon code OTB2024. That's valid until the end of 2024. You can join me in my community at wwwstrengthinnaturecom, and on Instagram at creativelyefficient. Thanks for listening. I look forward to hearing from you soon.